Section 376B: Commercial sex with minor under 18

[asdfghjkl]

This thread is to educate members about the recent case of the underage FL, which caused such a big uproar in Singapore.

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Commercial sex with minor under 18 (376B)

(1) Any person who obtains for consideration the sexual services of a person, who is under 18 years of age, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 7 years, or with fine, or with both.

(2) Any person who communicates with another person for the purpose of obtaining for consideration, the sexual services of a person who is under 18 years of age, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.

(3) No person shall be guilty of an offense under this section for any sexual services obtained from that person’s spouse.

(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

[asdfghjkl]

Thus, by this paragraph, if a man had oral sex with the 17 year old FL, its a criminal act.

However, my interpretation is that mammary intercourse (breast fuck) is actually legal in this case for the underage FL.

Anyone can shed some light on this matter?

[JRthe6]

Singapore is a signatory to the United Nations Human Rights Protocol to the Convention of the Rights of the Child (UNHRCRC) on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography. Currently more than 100 countries are signatories to the Protocol.

As a signatory, Singapore is obliged to observe and position its laws in line with that of the protocol.

The UNHRCRC first came into force in 2002 but that originally did not have the below 18 section. Because of allegations that surfaced in 2005 that UN peacekeepers deployed around the world were engaging child prostitutes, UN Sec-Gen Kofi Annan directed a team of experts led by UN Asst Sec-Gen Adeline Kane to do a redraft of the original and thus the amended Protocol to the UNHRCRC now has included in it a section that prohibits sexual activities with persons under 18, for the exchange of money, goods or services for sexual favours. This new protocol came into force sometime in either 2009 or 2010. Singapore became a signatory to this new amended protocol. (So if these 48 men had screwed "Chantelle" in 2008/2009 they would not have broken the law).

This does not apply only in Singapore but in all the other 100+ countries that were signatories to the UNHRCRC.

JR the 6th

[dander]

Thus, by this paragraph, if a man had oral sex with the 17 year old FL, its a criminal act.

However, my interpretation is that mammary intercourse (breast fuck) is actually legal in this case for the underage FL.

Anyone can shed some light on this matter?

Mammary intercourse falls within the ambit of the section as it is clearly "sexual service"

[wallace741852]

Thanks TS for sharing.
Does that mean if the FL is 18yrs old it is legal and police cant press charges to us? So if we happen to have police raid in hotel and we caught in action we can just tell them the girl is FL?

[flamboyant]

Thanks TS for sharing.
Does that mean if the FL is 18yrs old it is legal and police cant press charges to us? So if we happen to have police raid in hotel and we caught in action we can just tell them the girl is FL?

Yes. But the police may compel you to make your statement in a certain way that may not be the truth. Should you refuse to cooperate and admit to the untruth they will tell you that they will call your wife to bail you. Best thing is not get caught.

[asdfghjkl]

Mammary intercourse falls within the ambit of the section as it is clearly "sexual service"

can you define it under 4(a) or 4(b), thanks?

[trademark]

(3) No person shall be guilty of an offense under this section for any sexual services obtained from that person’s spouse.

dont understand this statement. anyone care to explain?

[stone08]

If it's ur wife, it's alright baby! Whooha!

[Deesiaokia]

If it's ur wife, it's alright baby! Whooha!

Bro, if u force yourself on your wife when she is unwillingly to have sex with u also consider rape when she report to the police.

[limkh11]

Think it is not good to play with the words or fuck around with the LAW.
End of day, things will get messy when words get to newspaper. Whether you broke the law or not.

Playing with fire.

Unless you are train to or you can afford to...:cool:

[slider_72]

Mammary intercourse falls within the ambit of the section as it is clearly "sexual service"

can you define it under 4(a) or 4(b), thanks?

I think the law is quite clear on what amounts to "sexual services".

Under 4(a), you cannot poke her pussy or ass with any objects at all. In other words, you cannot finger the girl or even poke her with a dildo.

If the girl gives you a hand job, it would fall outside the ambit of 4(a). Also, a guy groping her breasts or touching her pussy is also outside the ambit of 4(a) (so those who cheong KTVs but do not da pao are safe even if the girl is below 18)

Taking it one step forward, if a guy places a vibrator outside the pussy (make sure don't poke inside), the act of doing so is still not considered as a "sexual service" as defined by the Penal Code.

Therefore, going by the definition in 4(a), a boobjob and hand job are both permissible.

4(b) on the other hand makes it quite clear that if you poke the girl's pussy, ass or if she gives you a bj, you are screwed if she is under 18 years old.


Thanks TS for sharing.
Does that mean if the FL is 18yrs old it is legal and police cant press charges to us? So if we happen to have police raid in hotel and we caught in action we can just tell them the girl is FL?

Prostitution is LEGAL in this country.

Fucking a prostitute is also LEGAL in this country (provided she is above 18 years old).

Fucking a FL in a hotel room is LEGAL. If you get caught in a raid, you might be asked to provide a statement to the police as they may want to charge the pimp but that is something else altogether.

You will not be charged for fucking a FL in a hotel room. If you are not charged, there is no necessity for anyone to come and bail you. The police have to let you go once you are done giving whatever statement they want you to give. Don't be conned by comments like "shall I ask your wife to come and bail you out?". If any police officer asked you such a question, you should reply by asking "what is the offense that I am charged with?" If the police officer says you are charged for having sex with a prostitute (unless she is under 18 years old), my response would be "yah, right..."


(3) No person shall be guilty of an offense under this section for any sexual services obtained from that person’s spouse.

dont understand this statement. anyone care to explain?

There is no concept of marital rape in Singapore. In other words, you cannot be charged for raping your wife. Your wife cutting your dick off when she is not in the mood is another thing altogether.

Say guy A goes to Vietnam and purchases a bride who happens to be 17 years old. Even though guy A paid money for it, and he is fucking her like nobody's business once he gets back, it is not an offense provided the deed is done after the marriage is legally registered.

Guy B purchases another 17 year old bride from Vietnam. After bringing her back, he fucks her like there is no tomorrow and does not register his marriage. For all intents and purposes, they are not husband and wife and guy B might just be charged for having commercial sex with an underaged girl.

[MitMit]

Bro, u must be a lawyer ;)

I think the law is quite clear on what amounts to "sexual services".

Under 4(a), you cannot poke her pussy or ass with any objects at all. In other words, you cannot finger the girl or even poke her with a dildo.

If the girl gives you a hand job, it would fall outside the ambit of 4(a). Also, a guy groping her breasts or touching her pussy is also outside the ambit of 4(a) (so those who cheong KTVs but do not da pao are safe even if the girl is below 18)

Taking it one step forward, if a guy places a vibrator outside the pussy (make sure don't poke inside), the act of doing so is still not considered as a "sexual service" as defined by the Penal Code.

Therefore, going by the definition in 4(a), a boobjob and hand job are both permissible.

4(b) on the other hand makes it quite clear that if you poke the girl's pussy, ass or if she gives you a bj, you are screwed if she is under 18 years old.




Prostitution is LEGAL in this country.

Fucking a prostitute is also LEGAL in this country (provided she is above 18 years old).

Fucking a FL in a hotel room is LEGAL. If you get caught in a raid, you might be asked to provide a statement to the police as they may want to charge the pimp but that is something else altogether.

You will not be charged for fucking a FL in a hotel room. If you are not charged, there is no necessity for anyone to come and bail you. The police have to let you go once you are done giving whatever statement they want you to give. Don't be conned by comments like "shall I ask your wife to come and bail you out?". If any police officer asked you such a question, you should reply by asking "what is the offense that I am charged with?" If the police officer says you are charged for having sex with a prostitute (unless she is under 18 years old), my response would be "yah, right..."




There is no concept of marital rape in Singapore. In other words, you cannot be charged for raping your wife. Your wife cutting your dick off when she is not in the mood is another thing altogether.

Say guy A goes to Vietnam and purchases a bride who happens to be 17 years old. Even though guy A paid money for it, and he is fucking her like nobody's business once he gets back, it is not an offense provided the deed is done after the marriage is legally registered.

Guy B purchases another 17 year old bride from Vietnam. After bringing her back, he fucks her like there is no tomorrow and does not register his marriage. For all intents and purposes, they are not husband and wife and guy B might just be charged for having commercial sex with an underaged girl.

[nokia88]

From my understanding this section does not state the sex of the FL .

Does those Pre-op/op ladyboy fall under this catergory ?

[BenjiGlory]

How about having sex with no commercial transaction involved ?

[xiaolibiantai]

How about having sex with no commercial transaction involved ?

Then she must be at least 16 years old and agree to have sex with you. If under 16, she agree also no use. You will still be charged with statutory rape.

[BenjiGlory]

Then she must be at least 16 years old and agree to have sex with you. If under 16, she agree also no use. You will still be charged with statutory rape.

So if like between bf and gf and both are above 16 years old both agree to have sex with one another then it is ok ?

[stone08]

Bro, if u force yourself on your wife when she is unwillingly to have sex with u also consider rape when she report to the police.

Bro, see slider 72 comment on marital rape. Don't know if it's true.

[slider_72]

Bro, see slider 72 comment on marital rape. Don't know if it's true.

You can check the Penal Code. Section 375(4) says so.


"(4) No man shall be guilty of an offence under subsection (1) against his wife, who is not under 13 years of age, except where at the time of the offence —

(a)his wife was living apart from him —
(i)under an interim judgment of divorce not made final or a decree nisi for divorce not made absolute;
(ii)under an interim judgment of nullity not made final or a decree nisi for nullity not made absolute;
(iii)under a judgment or decree of judicial separation; or
(iv)under a written separation agreement;

(b)his wife was living apart from him and proceedings have been commenced for divorce, nullity or judicial separation, and such proceedings have not been terminated or concluded;

(c)there was in force a court injunction to the effect of restraining him from having sexual intercourse with his wife;

(d)there was in force a protection order under section 65 or an expedited order under section 66 of the Women’s Charter (Cap. 353) made against him for the benefit of his wife; or

(e)his wife was living apart from him and proceedings have been commenced for the protection order or expedited order referred to in paragraph (d), and such proceedings have not been terminated or concluded."

Section 375(1) is the provision on rape.

Section 375(4) says that it is not rape if you shag your wife provided she is above 13 years old, so long as there is no divorce / annulment proceedings or some other court order to restrain the husband from fucking his wife.

[xiaolibiantai]

So if like between bf and gf and both are above 16 years old both agree to have sex with one another then it is ok ?

Consented sex is ok for above 16 years old. It's problem when it's commercial sex for under 18s.

[Apocalypse]

So whores now must go for biz and legal classes

When u fuck a girl between 16 - 18 yrs old, u must give her a love letter saying how much u admire her and she return u a letter saying she is touched by your sinerity.

Keep all the mushy sms and whatsapp too. Dun pay on the spot, after that get her to say that she needs to pay utilities bill about $400, if u love me u'll lend me the $ and I will return to u next time. Keep the sms too.

Then after that transfer the $ to her.

Then u can prove this girl is your gf not comercial sex.

[risingeast]

I think maybe safest is I just DIY.

[grey82]

So whores now must go for biz and legal classes

When u fuck a girl between 16 - 18 yrs old, u must give her a love letter saying how much u admire her and she return u a letter saying she is touched by your sinerity.

Keep all the mushy sms and whatsapp too. Dun pay on the spot, after that get her to say that she needs to pay utilities bill about $400, if u love me u'll lend me the $ and I will return to u next time. Keep the sms too.

Then after that transfer the $ to her.

Then u can prove this girl is your gf not comercial sex.

also can help top her ez link?:D

or buy a gold ring of same value?

cannot sue us right?

[hawkeye007]

Then she must be at least 16 years old and agree to have sex with you. If under 16, she agree also no use. You will still be charged with statutory rape.

Actually, consensual sex with a gal between the age of 14 to 16 years old is just deemed as sex with a minor... Still an offence in the eyes of the law, but much less severe than statutory rape..

It is only considered statutory rape if the gal is below the age of 14, regardless of whether it was consensual or not...

Hope this clarifies any doubts..!

[Tomthefucker]

Actually, consensual sex with a gal between the age of 14 to 16 years old is just deemed as sex with a minor... Still an offence in the eyes of the law, but much less severe than statutory rape..

It is only considered statutory rape if the gal is below the age of 14, regardless of whether it was consensual or not...

Hope this clarifies any doubts..!

Just a minor clarification, unless there's amendment to this section of the Penal Code.It is actually 14 to below 16years.:)

[Tomthefucker]

Bro, if u force yourself on your wife when she is unwillingly to have sex with u also consider rape when she report to the police.

Under section 376A(5), no man can be liable for an offence of rape against his wife(provided she's not under 13 of age), with the exception of the circumstances stated under the sub-section as listed out under Section 376(5).

Mentioned under some of the sub-sections are Court Injunctions and Court Orders. The wife can probably use "spousal violence" against husband for forcing on her and file for a Court Injunction or Order in Court.

[Tomthefucker]

(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

Its interesting to note that under Sub-Section (4)(a), using sex toys to penetrate the vagina or anus actually constitues an offence under this section as well.

Sub-section (4)(b) covers oral sex as well..

Nothing relates to breast fuck so my humble opinion is that its grey area..

[Tomthefucker]

(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —
(a)sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or
(b)penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

The gender of the prostitute is not of relevance...which means male, female, trans all falls within........

[asdfghjkl]

Asking a 16 year old FL to masturbate for you is not illegal, under section 376B. :eek:

[Tomthefucker]

From my point of view problem is not in those parts of law but in point that you should prove her actual age and beeing responsble for it...how? Going to her father and get copy of her birth certificate , confirmed and stamped by lawyer before u nail her?!?!
If pimp sais she is legal age and she re-confirm it -in any reasonable country it should not be your responsability anymore..

unfortunate the law is written in such a way against the "offender"..

[Tomthefucker]

Asking a 16 year old FL to masturbate for you is not illegal, under section 376B. :eek:

it seems that breast fuck, HJ etc are not clearly defined under that section, but i would have thought that the law makers would have covered all angles before passing the Bill...

Maybe some lawyers in the forum can help enlighten us all..:)

[asdfghjkl]

well.. they certainly covered that.. hard to believe PAP just pass anyhow. so the omission means its actually OK for these two activities. :eek:

[JRthe6]

Maybe some lawyers in the forum can help enlighten us all..:)


Donch be too trusting of lawyers.
Lawyers donch know everything about the law.

[marchboy]

have nothing to do with under 18s, whether it is paid or otherwise.

[FRATERNITY]

luckily i got over with it :D please be careful now guys

[s7evin]

luckily i got over with it :D please be careful now guys

lol yea all careful now :D

[trademark]

In the newpaper today, boy 15 got sexually transmitted infection from prostitutes. Will the prostitutes be charged for underaged sex?

[Xgenre]

Asking a 16 year old FL to masturbate for you is not illegal, under section 376B. :eek:

Doesn't mean it will not flout other rules. Stay away from under 18s. A 16 yr old giving you a HJ might be interpreted as sexual grooming. It's up to the police to interpret Singapore's laws. If you are charged, it's difficult to prove your innocence. With so much publicity in the current 48 cases, even if you are proven innocent, your personal reputation would have taken an irrepairable hit.

Just stick to H81, the 2 ic requirement will help you weed out the under 18 ladies. H81 doesn't allow under 18 to book their rooms.

[andrew9030]

Hello , i like to know if i fuck my gf when she is 16 but haven't pass birthday and her dad reported after she reached 16. What will the outcome be?

[sgjoey]

Hello , i like to know if i fuck my gf when she is 16 but haven't pass birthday and her dad reported after she reached 16. What will the outcome be?

You can be charged and found guilty of breaching Section 376A -- having sex with a minor.

If you were a minor yourself when you did it, the penalty will probably not be heavy. But if you were past 21 when you did it, you could be sent to prison.

[sammyboyfor]

Hello , i like to know if i fuck my gf when she is 16 but haven't pass birthday and her dad reported after she reached 16. What will the outcome be?

If she hasn't passed her 16th birthday she's only 15. :rolleyes:

[too_hot]

it seems that breast fuck, HJ etc are not clearly defined under that section, but i would have thought that the law makers would have covered all angles before passing the Bill...

Maybe some lawyers in the forum can help enlighten us all..:)

I guess its a slippery slope once you start including things like breast fcuk & HJ then end up there is no end and things like hugging, kissing and even hand holding all also get banned as these are all sources of arousement.

Hence they have to stop somewhere "reasonable" and they decide to stop with mouth and sex organs.

[fogger2]

In the newpaper today, boy 15 got sexually transmitted infection from prostitutes. Will the prostitutes be charged for underaged sex?


That what i want to know too... will it be fair to charge the prostitute for having sex with an underage client?? :confused:

[andrew9030]

You can be charged and found guilty of breaching Section 376A -- having sex with a minor.

If you were a minor yourself when you did it, the penalty will probably not be heavy. But if you were past 21 when you did it, you could be sent to prison.

But that time when I do with her I was 19 then when her dad reported she was 16 and I was 20. Beside it have been pending for 1 year & 8 month , so will I still get charged?

If she hasn't passed her 16th birthday she's only 15. :rolleyes:

Yes , but it is at the same year just that her dad reported after months later.

[asdfghjkl]

will it be fair to charge the prostitute for having sex with an underage client?

if the boy is 15 year old and the WL is 18, i believe the WL would be in trouble.

http://singaporelegaladvice.com/2011/07/legal-age-for-sex-in-singapore/

[risingeast]

This is for underage. Anything for overage?

[Stabil0]

What happen if the FL's IC say she turns 18 tomorrow at 12.01.

We book hotel today at 11.40pm. Went into Hotel 81 with her at 11.45pm and set alarm clock to 12.02

We strip naked at 11.50pm.

I place my kukujiao in front of her pussy at 11.59pm then wait for alarm to ring. Once alarm ring, I entered her.

Like that got commit offence or not ? Physically I entered her at 12.02 when she is 1 min past 18 years old.

But the Hotel H1 record shows I check in when she is 1 day short of 18 years old.

So how ?

[sean69]

What happen if the FL's IC say she turns 18 tomorrow at 12.01.

We book hotel today at 11.40pm. Went into Hotel 81 with her at 11.45pm and set alarm clock to 12.02

We strip naked at 11.50pm.

I place my kukujiao in front of her pussy at 11.59pm then wait for alarm to ring. Once alarm ring, I entered her.

Like that got commit offence or not ? Physically I entered her at 12.02 when she is 1 min past 18 years old.

But the Hotel H1 record shows I check in when she is 1 day short of 18 years old.

So how ?

so how?? .. so why cant u wait for 1 more day before u screw her?? so why u asking this kind of boh liao question?

[Kenneleon]

Know the law well if you wanna play..
And remember boys and girls,its not what you know but what you can prove in court..

[Heath]

actually how shld para (2) be interpreted ???

Commercial sex with minor under 18 (376B)

(1) Any person who obtains for consideration the sexual services of a person, who is under 18 years of age, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 7 years, or with fine, or with both.

(2) Any person who communicates with another person for the purpose of obtaining for consideration, the sexual services of a person who is under 18 years of age, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.

(3) No person shall be guilty of an offense under this section for any sexual services obtained from that person’s spouse.

(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

the wider interpretation is that it is an offence if you simply msg an OKT to enquire abt a FL who is advertised as >18 yo (but is in fact <18 yo)

hmm any lawyers here can help?

[Basil]

actually how shld para (2) be interpreted ???



the wider interpretation is that it is an offence if you simply msg an OKT to enquire abt a FL who is advertised as >18 yo (but is in fact <18 yo)

hmm any lawyers here can help?

Thats the offence known as sexual grooming. Dont ever think of it. Stay away from minors.

[LovePotion]

Ok commercial sex will be a big problem.

What if the girl volunteer herself without any cash transaction involved?

I understand we will still be charged but what I dont understand is that we didnt force them to have sex. Why are we still commited as a crime?

They should charge the Xiao mei mei also, its too unfair.

[ChinJialat]

Dont ever think of it. Stay away from minors.

Yes to be safer, better bonk only those above 20s

[kurosaki ichigo]

Yes. But the police may compel you to make your statement in a certain way that may not be the truth. Should you refuse to cooperate and admit to the untruth they will tell you that they will call your wife to bail you. Best thing is not get caught.

No bail is required if you have not been charged or admit to committing an offence.

[Squirting]

(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

Sorry, my Inngerish is not powderful.

I cannot understand what is the purpose of adding the words "other than penis" in bracket in Section 4(a).

Can some lawyers explain this ?

Thank you ..

[need_it]

Sorry, my Inngerish is not powderful.

I cannot understand what is the purpose of adding the words "other than penis" in bracket in Section 4(a).

Can some lawyers explain this ?

Thank you ..

Not a lawyer but I understand this means if you finger or fist or poke your toe in, it is caught by 4(a). This widens the ambit of 4(a) as much as possible.

[Summerhillt]

So whores now must go for biz and legal classes

When u fuck a girl between 16 - 18 yrs old, u must give her a love letter saying how much u admire her and she return u a letter saying she is touched by your sinerity.

Keep all the mushy sms and whatsapp too. Dun pay on the spot, after that get her to say that she needs to pay utilities bill about $400, if u love me u'll lend me the $ and I will return to u next time. Keep the sms too.

Then after that transfer the $ to her.

Then u can prove this girl is your gf not comercial sex.

Erm you do know that SMS is not considered as a form of evidence in SG courts.

[theupmostone]

Erm you do know that SMS is not considered as a form of evidence in SG courts.

Who says SMS is not considered as a form of evidence? BS.
I know because of the nature of my business.

[newyorker88]

Who says SMS is not considered as a form of evidence? BS.
I know because of the nature of my business.

You are in law profession or police?

[Squirting]

Not a lawyer but I understand this means if you finger or fist or poke your toe in, it is caught by 4(a). This widens the ambit of 4(a) as much as possible.
Thanks need_it.

Ok let's revisit the clause 4(a)which says:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or


If that is the intention of the sentence to widens the ambit to include fingers, fist or toe, then without the "(other then the penis)" in bracket, it can also include fingers, fist or toe by simple amendments to it, eg:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by any part of another person’s body or by anything else; or

Wouldn't this widens the ambit ? I do not understand why the need to add in bracket "(other than the penis)" ...

Any opinion on this ?

Thank you

[Squirting]

Not a lawyer but I understand this means if you finger or fist or poke your toe in, it is caught by 4(a). This widens the ambit of 4(a) as much as possible.
Thanks need_it.

Ok let's revisit the clause 4(a)which says:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or


If that is the intention of the sentence to widens the ambit to include fingers, fist or toe, then without the "(other then the penis)" in bracket, it can also include fingers, fist or toe by simple amendments to it, eg:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by any part of another person’s body or by anything else; or

Wouldn't this widens the ambit ? I do not understand why the need to add in bracket "(other than the penis)" ...

Any opinion on this ?

Thank you

[theupmostone]

Yes, S376B is very wide to cover any form of underage paid sexual services. If you are providing a consideration, for any such form of sexual services, you are basically screwed.

[need_it]

Thanks need_it.

Ok let's revisit the clause 4(a)which says:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or


If that is the intention of the sentence to widens the ambit to include fingers, fist or toe, then without the "(other then the penis)" in bracket, it can also include fingers, fist or toe by simple amendments to it, eg:

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by any part of another person’s body or by anything else; or

Wouldn't this widens the ambit ? I do not understand why the need to add in bracket "(other than the penis)" ...

Any opinion on this ?

Thank you

Hey bro, that is a good one and I don't have an answer to that. Both give the same outcome. But it may be that (a) is linked to (b) so it is worded this way, to distinguish between using penis, not using penis and using something other than penis, and the parts being penetrated. If we use your replacement for (a) and (b), paying a girl to suck your fingers will be caught. Lol. Anyone who knows the answer please share. I'm curious to know too.

[IceLem0nTea]

Hey bro, that is a good one and I don't have an answer to that. Both give the same outcome. But it may be that (a) is linked to (b) so it is worded this way, to distinguish between using penis, not using penis and using something other than penis, and the parts being penetrated. If we use your replacement for (a) and (b), paying a girl to suck your fingers will be caught. Lol. Anyone who knows the answer please share. I'm curious to know too.

My interpretation of clause 4(a) and (b) is that only vagina/anus penetration is considered sexual service ..... hj or bj is not :)

I could be wrong though

[need_it]

My interpretation of clause 4(a) and (b) is that only vagina/anus penetration is considered sexual service ..... hj or bj is not :)

I could be wrong though

Think bj is caught. Well I don't know any better! Confused liao...

[theupmostone]

BJ is caught. There is a judgment on it. Read the Singapore High Court's judgment of Leu Xing-Long v Public Prosecutor
[2014] SGHC 193, especially the following paragraph:

"15 Consider another hypothetical scenario where an accused person pays a minor to masturbate him with her hands. He has no intention whatsoever to penetrate the minor in any way. Whilst in the very dark room and unknown to him, the minor of her own volition suddenly fellates him. Penetration of the minor’s mouth occurs. However, the accused honestly but mistakenly believes that the minor is still masturbating him. If the accused person manages to show that his penetration is not intentional, the Prosecution may well fail to prove the charge because the mens rea element (b) is not established beyond a reasonable doubt."

[theupmostone]

Hey bro, that is a good one and I don't have an answer to that. Both give the same outcome. But it may be that (a) is linked to (b) so it is worded this way, to distinguish between using penis, not using penis and using something other than penis, and the parts being penetrated. If we use your replacement for (a) and (b), paying a girl to suck your fingers will be caught. Lol. Anyone who knows the answer please share. I'm curious to know too.

Basically, any penetration (BJ, Anal, Virginal) by the guy to a girl is caught, if it is done by penis.

Selected penetration (Virginal and Anal, EXCLUDING/BUT NOT Mouth) by the guy to a girl is caught, if it is done by penis or anything (stick, pen, pencil, body parts (tongue, fingers, hands, toes)). - So, using hand to insert into a WL's mouth appears to be alright (or just kissing). LOL.


************************************************** ************************************************** **********
(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

************************************************** ************************************************** **********

[theupmostone]

You are in law profession or police?

I am in the business of fucking girls legally.

[hongkongdoggy]

For ahem with underage gals. I supposed one 'famous ' samster here by the nick of seaj is the expert! :eek:

[theupmostone]

For ahem with underage gals. I supposed one 'famous ' samster here by the nick of seaj is the expert! :eek:

Best is to stay away from those under 18, unless you are in a relationship with the underage girl. Happy bonking as a couple if she is 16 and above.
I am too old for that.

[need_it]

Best is to stay away from those under 18, unless you are in a relationship with the underage girl. Happy bonking as a couple if she is above 16.
I am too old for that.

Thanks for the interpretation! You are SBf resident lawyer la!

[theupmostone]

Just a thought. The illegality is that there was consideration (does not have to be money) paid for the sexual service. So, if you are paying for her time and meals, and the sex was not paid, perhaps you may get away with it. That's how certain OKT advertise themselves. Don't know whether it will work in the eyes of the law.

One situation (I am not saying the judge would say it is legal - this is borderline or grey area, so it is your risk if you do so):

1. Go out with the girl (16 and above).
2. Pay for her meal and/or go shopping.
3. Pay her $xxx for her time, meal and shopping as allowance.
4. Bring her to hotel to watch tv.
5. Flirt with her. Bonk her (with her consent). Good luck.

[hongkongdoggy]

Best is to stay away from those under 18, unless you are in a relationship with the underage girl. Happy bonking as a couple if she is 16 and above.
I am too old for that.

Bro,
I believed in karma and will naber do that ! The worst is one samster actually pimp them over in china! :mad:

[need_it]

Just a thought. The illegality is that there was consideration (does not have to be money) paid for the sexual service. So, if you are paying for her time and meals, and the sex was not paid, perhaps you may get away with it. That's how certain OKT advertise themselves. Don't know whether it will work in the eyes of the law.

One situation (I am not saying the judge would not say it is legal - this is borderline or grey area, so it is your risk if you do so):

1. Go out with the girl (16 and above).
2. Pay for her meal and/or go shopping.
3. Pay her $xxx for her time, meal and shopping as allowance.
4. Bring her to hotel to watch tv.
5. Flirt with her. Bonk her (with her consent). Good luck.

Bro, I think the difficulty lies in how to convince the court that your payment in kind is not seen to be payment for sexual service. Your scenario above may be plausible if say it is a guy who is in a relationship or dating the girl, and has been paying for dates etc. One day they lost themselves and got it on. Maybe in that scenario, the facts could refute the suggestion of commercial payment for sexual services. If it is intended to catch this kind of activity, then this entire law will be interpreted liberally?

[Squirting]

Basically, any penetration (BJ, Anal, Virginal) by the guy to a girl is caught, if it is done by penis.

Selected penetration (Virginal and Anal, EXCLUDING/BUT NOT Mouth) by the guy to a girl is caught, if it is done by penis or anything (stick, pen, pencil, body parts (tongue, fingers, hands, toes)). - So, using hand to insert into a WL's mouth appears to be alright (or just kissing). LOL.


************************************************** ************************************************** **********
(4) In this section, “sexual services” means any sexual services involving —

(a) sexual penetration of the vagina or anus, as the case may be, of a person by a part of another person’s body (other than the penis) or by anything else; or

(b) penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth, as the case may be, of a person by a man’s penis.

************************************************** ************************************************** **********

Ok, good explanation of the sub-clauses .... thanks

[Squirting]

Since bros here talk about BJ, what about BJ between 2 consenting adult above 18 ? Are this considered as an offence under unnatural sex ?

Thank you

[BMW69]

Since bros here talk about BJ, what about BJ between 2 consenting adult above 18 ? Are this considered as an offence under unnatural sex ?

Thank you

Yes. It is.

[BMW69]

One situation (I am not saying the judge would not say it is legal - this is borderline or grey area, so it is your risk if you do so):

1. Go out with the girl (16 and above).
2. Pay for her meal and/or go shopping.
3. Pay her $xxx for her time, meal and shopping as allowance.
4. Bring her to hotel to watch tv.
5. Flirt with her. Bonk her (with her consent). Good luck.

Except for point 3, I would do every single of that with my girlfriend even if she was under 18. If she happened to be a fl, I can argue that I got to know her through a mutual friend (pimp) and subsequently became her boyfriend and she's multi-timing me (behind my back or otherwise) right?

[Squirting]

Yes. It is.

Can we get away by arguing in court that BJ is part of foreplay ?

[BMW69]

Can we get away by arguing in court that BJ is part of foreplay ?

Yes you can.

fellatio constitutes an offence under Section 377 of the Penal Code, unless it is a prelude to or used as a stimulant for normal consensual sexual intercourse between a male and a female.

[huatkeelan]

haha learnt new things here :D

[theupmostone]

Can we get away by arguing in court that BJ is part of foreplay ?

BRO BMW69, I don't know where you are getting your outdated information. BJ between two consenting males and females (heterosexual couple) in private (exception is BJ between two males) is legal whether or not it is part of foreplay.

What you have been citing is the old law. The old position (under section 377 of the Penal Code) has been repealed. Please get your facts right and do not spread misinformation.

During the parliamentary debates on 22 and 23 October 2007 regarding the Bill which later became the 2007 Amendment Act (viz, the Penal Code (Amendment) Bill 2007 (Bill 38 of 2007)), the then Senior Minister of State for Home Affairs, Assoc Prof Ho Peng Kee, explained the decision to repeal s 377 as follows (see Singapore Parliamentary Debates, Official Report (22 October 2007) vol 83 at cols 2198–2200):

"Updating Penal Code provisions to reflect societal norms and values

...
Section 377

Next, Sir, we will be removing the use of the archaic term, “Carnal Intercourse Against the Order of Nature” from the [1985] Penal Code. By repealing section 377, any sexual act including oral and anal sex, between a consenting heterosexual couple, 16 years of age and above, will no longer be criminalised when done in private. As the [1985] Penal Code reflects social norms and values, deleting section 377 is the right thing to do as Singaporeans by and large do not find oral and anal sex between two consenting male and female [persons] in private offensive or unacceptable. This is clear from the public reaction to the case of [Annis bin Abdullah v Public Prosecutor [2003] SGDC 290] in [2003] and confirmed through the feedback received in the course of this Penal Code review consultation."

[TehOkosong]

haha learnt new things here :D

Yesh, eat till old, learn till old :D

[BMW69]

BRO BMW69, I don't know where you are getting your outdated information. BJ between two consenting males and females (heterosexual couple) in private (exception is BJ between two males) is legal whether or not it is part of foreplay.

What you have been citing is the old law. The old position (under section 377 of the Penal Code) has been repealed. Please get your facts right and do not spread misinformation.

During the parliamentary debates on 22 and 23 October 2007 regarding the Bill which later became the 2007 Amendment Act (viz, the Penal Code (Amendment) Bill 2007 (Bill 38 of 2007)), the then Senior Minister of State for Home Affairs, Assoc Prof Ho Peng Kee, explained the decision to repeal s 377 as follows (see Singapore Parliamentary Debates, Official Report (22 October 2007) vol 83 at cols 2198–2200):

Thank you very much for the clarification. I'm very glad to know that the law has been repealed.

[Squirting]

BRO BMW69, I don't know where you are getting your outdated information. BJ between two consenting males and females (heterosexual couple) in private (exception is BJ between two males) is legal whether or not it is part of foreplay.

What you have been citing is the old law. The old position (under section 377 of the Penal Code) has been repealed. Please get your facts right and do not spread misinformation.

During the parliamentary debates on 22 and 23 October 2007 regarding the Bill which later became the 2007 Amendment Act (viz, the Penal Code (Amendment) Bill 2007 (Bill 38 of 2007)), the then Senior Minister of State for Home Affairs, Assoc Prof Ho Peng Kee, explained the decision to repeal s 377 as follows (see Singapore Parliamentary Debates, Official Report (22 October 2007) vol 83 at cols 2198–2200):

Ok thanks for the update ...

Now can enjoy bj without having the fear of officials barging in liao ... :D